Answering Tough Questions from a Ministry Doctoral Student

Welcome to another Thursday UNFILTERED blog post, the only blog that wishes we were all as educated as Abraham. He knew a Lot.

Late last year, Leonard Sweet invited me to speak to his doctoral students about the New Testament narrative. You can listen to that conversation here.

Immediately afterwards, one of the students in the group asked to interview me for his doctoral thesis. I agreed under the condition that I could share the interview with my readers.

The interview covers my critique of common Protestant/evangelical assumptions about discipleship, ministry, and “church,” along with a radical call to deeper experiential knowledge of Christ in authentic kingdom communities.

Here is the entire interview. I’m sharing it with you because I believe you’ll derive value from it, especially since my answers are out of the norm (for better or worse).

Enjoy!

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Question 1: Christians in Protestant churches across the United States see discipleship and ministry as the primary responsibility of the pastor and church staff, not themselves. Do you agree?

Frank: Before I answer your questions, I need to clear away some brush and provide necessary context for my responses.

In Mark 7:13, Jesus said to the Pharisees and teachers of the Law, “you cancel or make void or nullify the word of God by your tradition.”

Now consider this.

• The Scriptures tell us that God’s word will not return void.
• The word of God is living, active, and powerful.
• God watches over His word to perform it.
• God has even exalted His word above His name.

Yet according to Jesus, there is one thing that can stop the word of God dead in its tracks. It’s man-made religious tradition.

For this reason, the religious leaders of Christ’s day couldn’t quite figure Him out. He was coming from a completely different place when He taught and answered their questions.

Consequently, my responses don’t fit into any common religious tradition, including those which are popular right now within evangelical Christianity (whether on the Right or the Left).

Hence, my answers will be out of the norm.

So I encourage you and whoever else is reading this to compare my answers with what the Bible actually teaches rather than according to what a religious tradition proclaims or what’s popular in the Christian mainstream right now.

Now on to your question.

With respect to the masses of church-attending Protestant and evangelical Christians, I’d say your statement is true – that for the most part Protestant, evangelical, and mainline Christians “see discipleship and ministry as the primary responsibility of the pastor and church staff, not themselves” (to use your words).

But this has been the case for centuries, beginning with the Reformation when the office of the Protestant Pastor emerged (the office really being a Reformed Catholic priest, which history has revealed).

The clergy-laity divide has been in the drinking water of institutional Christianity going back to the fourth century. So this is nothing new.

The common presumption is that the clergy – or professional ministers – do the ministry and the rest of God’s people passively receive – except when it comes to sharing the gospel with the lost, or volunteering for positions to help the local church out, etc.

Question 2: As you uncover this, is this a symptom of a deeper problem? What do you see as the true problem?

Frank: Regarding whether or not it’s a “problem” depends on who you ask. Some Christians don’t see this mindset and framework as a problem at all.

But it also depends on what one means by “discipleship” and “ministry.” For instance, the prevailing assumption today is that discipleship means leading a lost person to Jesus and then meeting with them regularly to teach them the Bible and pray with them.

But this isn’t the concept that we have in the New Testament.

In the New Testament, “discipleship” (a word never used in Scripture) cannot be disconnected from 1.) Learning how to live by the indwelling life of Christ and 2.) Doing so in local, face-to-face community under the headship of Christ.

How many times have you heard that description of discipleship from proponents of discipleship? Yet it’s exactly what the New Testament consistently teaches.

Should you wish for me to expand those remarks, this free eBook makes the case. It’s never been refuted on biblical grounds: https://frankviola.org/dic7714.pdf

Of course, some would argue that the way the New Testament envisions discipleship (the biblical word for it is actually “transformation”) is not as sophisticated as today’s “discipleship” programs.

I would disagree. But many prefer church/ministry as we know it today to what it was in the New Testament. The primary reason is that today’s version is FAR more convenient and FAR more common and accepted.

Also, the idea of “ministry” in most institutional churches is typically restricted to teaching Sunday school, ushering, singing in the choir (or worship team), caring for the children, driving the church bus, and sharing the gospel with the lost, etc.

According to the New Testament envisions ministry as something far wider and deeper, and it envisions ministry as something that goes on in the gatherings of the ekklesia, not something that’s restricted to leaders.

In the New Testament, ministry *is shared by all of God’s people in many of the meetings of the church.* (I’ve established this point elsewhere from the New Testament documents.)

However, Christians differ on what “church” means and how it should function. And that’s a completely different subject.

Question 3: Beginning research findings:

Institutionalization of church (building, holy place, idolized)

Church staff/pastor  vs. laity Issue (Hierarchy professionalized ministry)

Lack of equipping in our churches

The American church is still centered on attractional models and methods to reach people with the gospel.

Discipleship/Equipping doesn’t seem to be the life of our gatherings (we measure who comes, not who we send)

Modern American church has become irrelevant to society

Thoughts about the above findings and anything you would add or not consider?

Frank: First, “the American church” is a misnomer. There is no such thing. There are churches (plural – Christian groups) of all different varieties in America. Actually over 40,000 different flavors (denominations).

For instance, a Reformed church doesn’t operate the same way as an Episcopalian church. Nor does a Pentecostal church operate the same way as a Baptist church.

Then there are a thousand plus different kinds of so-called “house churches.” And then there are genuine organic expressions of the church. And on and on.

All of them are different. Consequently, “the modern American church” simply doesn’t exist. The “church” in our country — or any other country — is not monolithic.

Question 4: How would you describe the current state of churches across the United States?

Frank: Impossible to answer. That’s like asking, “How would you describe plants in America right now?” My reply is, “Which plants are you asking about? Roses or apple trees. Palm trees or weeds. The question cannot be answered without making it far more specific.

Question 5: Your take on action steps/practical ideas/solutions?

Frank: I can only speak for myself and what God has called me to.

I’m not trying to change any kind of church. Nor am I trying to change anyone’s theology.

My mission is to Christians who are hungry and thirsty for more of Jesus Christ and who know in their bones – irrespective of their church background or tradition or experience – “there has to be more than this.”

My call is to introduce them to God’s Eternal Purpose in Christ, the explosive, jaw-dropping, heart-altering, titanic gospel of the kingdom, and the depths of Jesus Christ that a Christian can know and experience and make visible, individually and corporately.

Now those two paragraphs have will cause some Christians to yawn and reach for their smart phones while causing others to be electrified and ask, “This resonates with something deep within me … tell me more!”

My ministry exists for the latter group. And all of my work since I began in 2008 is focused on those specific themes.

Question 6: Your take on creative ideas and solutions to help reduce or solve the problem

Frank: Out of my experience of three decades of serving the Lord, I have discovered many creative and practical exercises that I give to God’s people and to churches who invite me in to speak and train them on the elements I just mentioned.

But those aren’t things that can be reduced to a sound byte or an article or an interview.

I work with God’s people hands-on in live events (upon invitation) and with leaders in my live mastermind (who apply and register). I also speak in live conferences and seminars as well as to churches who invite me in. Recently, I returned from Mississippi and then Michigan speaking multiple times to God’s people in different denominations.

While many things can be taught online and through books and articles and audios, none of what I’m speaking about concerning experiencing the depths of Christ can be transferred any other way than in-person and over a period of time.

Question 7: Share ideas on what can help solve this problem or be implemented into churches to refocus on the core calling of what Jesus has called us to be as kingdom communities?

Frank: This requires local assemblies inviting those servants of God who have powerfully anointed ministries and lots of experience in *showing God’s people HOW to know the depths of Christ in experience – beyond imparting academic information.

While there are MANY speakers today who can speak to the frontal lobe, very few can impart spiritual life and give what I call “practical handles” on HOW to actually know Christ in the depths and live by His indwelling life – which IS the essence of discipleship/transformation.

Question 8: Can the current church, as we know it, be redeemed? Meaning, can you take something existing and help it change?

Frank: “Redeeming the current church” is again something that I can’t speak to since there is no monolithic church to be redeemed.

The only redemption I know of is the eternal redemption that Christ has secured for all who have repented, believed (given their believing allegiance to Jesus), and have been baptized in His name.

Now if you’re asking if a particular local assembly can grow in the depths of Christ, it starts with pastors inviting those in who know the Lord deeply and who are equipped to practically bring the Holy Spirit’s transformation into a group of believers.

Again, I’m not speaking of imparting academic knowledge to a group of Christians. While that has its place, I’m speaking of something entirely different. I’m talking about what Paul so often spoke about regarding “knowing” Christ. A personal, living, walking knowledge which goes beyond the cerebrum.

I’m also not talking about an unbiblical mysticism.

The real problem is that few pastors today will invite such people in to speak to their congregations because it means sharing the limelight with someone else. And that requires a deep hunger for Christ on their part, spiritual reality, and a huge dose of humility.

I think out of everything you’ve singled out to discuss, that’s the BIG elephant in the room that should be addressed more by others.

I’ve discussed it in my book 48 Laws of Spiritual Power should you be interested in my take on it. The book is being used by many pastors in the USA.

Question 9: Are there additional ways to establish kingdom communities rather than typical church, house church, or models like the Tampa or Kansas City underground church?

Frank: I wouldn’t assume any of this as 1.) I know zero personally about the latter two groups you mentioned as I’ve never been invited to visit or speak to them (I never evaluate a group or movement unless I’ve seen it firsthand and have met the groups and leaders in-person), and 2.) Most “house churches” in my experience and observation (going back to 1988) are *not* living expressions of Jesus Christ nor do they have genuine body life operating under Christ’s headship.

Meeting in a home doesn’t make a group of Christians a church anymore than eating at McDonalds makes one a hamburger.

The house as a meeting location isn’t God’s passion. And it never has been. What’s important is how a particular church was founded, how and why it gathers, and What happens exactly in its gatherings and its the community life.

For this reason, I’ve never been an advocate of “house church” because that too isn’t a monolith. What kind of house church are we talking about is the question. There are thousands of varieties, just as there are thousands of institutional/traditional churches.

In short, I can only answer your question by my own experience and observation regarding how to establish kingdom communities. And it’s via the apostolic ministry as the New Testament reveals.

The Untold Story of the New Testament Church podcast makes this plain. As I said in the opening of that podcast, I wish every Christian who feels a call of God on their lives would watch it and hear the message conveyed through it. It has turned many who are in ministry — or who are studying for it — upside down.

I give details on the apostolic ministry and biblical support for it in several places, including the podcast. It’s a consistent pattern in Jesus, Paul, and the apostolic workers they trained.

Listen to the discussion that provoked this interview here. It’s called “3D Glasses for Reading the New Testament: Frank Viola & Leonard Sweet.”